Joakim Bruchmann

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Julius Ambrosius 00:00:00

Welcome to another episode of Campus To Capital. Today, Konstantin, myself are joined by Joakim Bruchmann, ex Goldman Sachs and CEO and founder of Pluto Markets. Welcome, Joakim.

Joakim Bruchmann

Thank you.

Konstantin Girst

Hello, Joakim. Yeah, it's so nice to have you on. And I mean, Julius just briefly touched upon two career stations of yours, but could you maybe briefly walk us through your career journey?

Joakim Bruchmann

Of course. Yeah. So I am 34. So it's been almost 10 years since I graduated. I graduated in 2016 with a master's degree in economics from University of Copenhagen. But the start of my career, in hindsight, was shaped way earlier. So when I was in 8th grade, and I must have been around 16 years old at the time, my dad, who was a teacher, thought I was a lazy teenager. I was into sports and I was starting to get into ladies, and he wanted me to take life a bit more seriously. So one day he came home with the financial newspaper and said, "You have a great head, my boy. Why don't you start using it?" So I was like browsing Børsen, which is the financial newspaper here in Denmark, and then I stumbled upon, you know, the

00:01:30

section with stocks, and I was like, oh, this is interesting, because I've always been a little bit of a gambler, and I quickly learned that this is actually the only area in life where you can gamble and make money, and I was into both. So I was like, this is pretty incredible. So I started investing from my dad's online bank. Back then you could not have, you know, fancy investment apps or anything. You had to go down, have a physical meeting with your financial advisor. Then if you were deemed eligible, he would open an investment account, and that's how you would start. So it's very, very opaque. But then I essentially started trading stocks from my dad's online bank, and that's when I fell in love with the financial markets, and something clicked, and I learned that this is probably the one thing I want to pursue. So I applied for the master's degree in economics, well, bachelor's and then master's. I got my first job at Danske Bank, where I was trading equities, and then upon graduation I moved to London, working with Goldman Sachs as a derivatives trader. And here I am, building Pluto Markets, which is an attempt to build the Robinhood of the Nordics, to challenge the incumbents from the '90s.

Host

May I ask, I mean, when you were a teenager, how did you hedge against that? I mean, it's exciting, but how did you hedge against that gambling aspect of investing, and kind of taught yourself maybe how to do some market analysis?

Joakim Bruchmann

Yeah. So I think I was being a bit stupid. First of all, I thought I could beat the

00:03:00

market, and I couldn't, because this was in 2007. I was doing like any naive teenager. I was looking at the pages in the newspaper, and then one journalist wrote about three stocks that he was highlighting, and I went and I bought all three of them. Now this was in 2007, right before the biggest financial crisis since the 1920s, right? So I bought Danske Bank, I bought SAS, the airline company that almost went bust and is now delisted, and I bought a small semiconductor that actually did go bust. So in 12 months I'd lost 50% of my pocket money. So I wish I'd known about hedging at the time. I didn't. So it was obviously a terrible start, but I still, in a weird way, consider this to be probably the best investment I ever did, cuz I lost money. But that was putting me on the path to become financially literate and become interested, which is the foundation for becoming good at anything.

Host

Yeah. I think it has to hurt at a certain point, you know, to make this turn. But you just said that you worked for Goldman Sachs in London. But what really inspired you then to make the leap from traditional finance to becoming an entrepreneur in fintech?

Joakim Bruchmann

Yeah. So

00:04:30

I think the financial industry is evolving, but during my time it was becoming increasingly regulated, like heavily, heavily regulated, especially after the 2008 financial crisis. So there was a lot of new regulation being introduced, and that was just taking away the joy of working. Like, an increasing proportion of what I did had to do with regulation and compliance, and that's sort of why I decided in the first place to pursue something completely different. I actually loved my job. Like, many ex-investment bankers you'll talk to say that they hated it. I didn't. I was a trader, and I have a really, really strong passion for the financial markets. But there were also some personal circumstances, meaning that I had to relocate back to Copenhagen, and then I didn't want to work for one of the local banks. I thought that would be a step down from where I came from. So I was like, I got to found my own company. And when I was living in London, I was living together with, it was just the three of us in the apartment, but I was living together with Victor, Steffen, founded Synthesia, that's now one of the most successful pioneers of AI, valued at, I don't know, $3 billion or something crazy. So I was following their journey all the way from the beginning, where they could not pay their rent and they were trading Bitcoin at night to try to finance their early days. And it was very inspirational for me to be part of that and see them, you know, move from stage to stage, and things that started out as a crazy

00:06:00

idea actually evolving into something quite material.

Host

[...]

Yeah, I think it's always important to be around people that are as ambitious as yourself. But could you tell us a little bit more about Pluto's mission and what makes it really unique in the neobroker space, also comparing it with the Nordic incumbents like Saxo Bank or Nordnet?

Joakim Bruchmann

Mhm. Yeah. So I think my observation, I've been living a little bit in the US, I've been living in the UK, I have friends in Germany, and I've sort of seen the new brokerage space evolve quite successfully. So obviously in the US you have Robinhood that sort of broke into consumer fintech big time and is now valued at 40 billion

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or something. So they're like a huge, huge listed company now. And what they did was actually quite simple. They just created a super user-friendly investment app, slashed commissions to zero and targeted a different audience, right? And we sort of have seen that recipe being copied by Trade Republic in Germany, by Midas in Turkey, by various players in India and pretty much around the world. And nothing has happened in the Nordics. And I actually got the idea two years before we ended up founding Pluto, because I was like, we're too late, someone else has seen this as well and is probably executing on it. And then nothing happened. And then I started scratching the surface, and I was like, why is nobody trying to challenge Nordnet, Avanza, Saxo Bank, that are like insanely profitable companies? So Nordnet has 70% profit margin pre-tax. So I think it's pretty unheard of. And I was like, why has nobody done it? And when you start analyzing the space, you actually realize that a lot of the missing innovation are the building blocks in the very deep infrastructure. So that's when we got conviction to sort of start to do it ourselves, because we realized that we don't just need to build a user-friendly app. We need to sort of rebuild the entire infrastructure layer from scratch, which is very close to building a bank. So I think, you know, fintechs are largely reliant on geographical nuances. So in the Nordic market we have like MitID,

00:09:01

BankID, we have tax integrations, you need to report taxes on behalf of your users, we have the local stock markets, we have local currencies. Like, there's a lot of reasons why somebody from the outside will struggle to penetrate the Nordics. So our belief is that in order to disrupt the Nordics, you have to focus on the Nordics and most likely also be from the Nordics. So that's what we're trying to build and have been building for the past three and a half years.

Host

Very impressive journey. Yeah, I mean, it's a very good opportunity recognition there. I think it's very interesting. I mean, how do you think, because you said that you kind of need to be in the Nordics to know the market here, but also how do you see differences between the working culture in, let's say, the US and the UK per se, compared to here in the Nordics? Because I imagine it is quite different, right?

Joakim Bruchmann

Yeah, it is. It is. So I did a semester at Columbia University as well, and I think that is when I got the strongest cultural shock. I think, you know, my experience from Goldman Sachs in London is not really that representative, because there were, I mean, we were, I don't know, 70 people in my department from like 50 different countries. So I can't tell you what British culture per se looks like, cuz it wasn't that British. It was like global. But I remember when I studied at Columbia University, I was quite shocked to see how much memorization is valued. Like, I was doing quite mathematical courses, like actuarial sciences courses,

00:10:31

you know, stochastic processes, statistics and that kind of stuff. And at the exam it would be like 30 minutes without any, you know, it was just like a free memorization format, freehand exam or whatever you call it, and it would just be memorization. So people would prepare, they would know what questions would come, and it would basically be about writing it down as quickly as possible, with like very small nuances, right? Whereas I think in Denmark, where I studied, you know, being critical and understanding the intuition is much more important oftentimes than getting the right result, right? So we're trained to challenge and understand on a deeper level. Whereas in the US, I felt like it was much more about just a result. Like, however you got there didn't matter. So that's the first nuance, I'd say, that I think we are quite good at fostering people that have a critical approach to pretty much everything. I think sometimes it's probably too much. Like, I've also tried hiring people straight out of school that believe that they should challenge on everything, and that's also not, you know, that nice to be leading someone who thinks like that. Like, you also need a good degree of humbleness. Now, the flip side to that is that we also have great work-life balance, right? So people are not as hardworking in the Nordics, and I think that's pretty clear.

Host

Yeah, I mean, this was not in the financial sector, but I was lucky to gain

00:12:01

some work experience in the UK and in the US already. And something that I personally really enjoyed was, especially in the US, the openness that everybody had, and kind of that sense of flat hierarchy, because everybody was just willing to help everybody, and especially there was a great lookout for young people and their interests and their potential skills. And I mean, talking about opportunities in the Nordics, I don't want to put you on the spot here, but are there maybe in the future or now any opportunities for young professionals and students to maybe gain experience at Pluto?

Joakim Bruchmann

Well, I'm tempted to say no, because we actually get a lot of people reaching out all the time. It's a bit overwhelming, and in the beginning I was like being super polite and replying everyone personally, and now I've sort of given up. So I think we are running our company in quite a different way than many others. So I mean, we've been building for three and a half years. We have a licensing that's pretty close to a banking license now. We have been part of Y Combinator. We have raised $3.5 million of external funding, but we're still five people, right? So you see people at our stage being 20, 25 people. We actually really value being a small team, because it keeps the cost base low, gives us time, it gives us flexibility to steer in whichever direction we find appropriate. So right now it's basically engineers and me, and that's probably the way we want to keep the company for a little while.

Host 00:13:32

Okay. But wouldn't you say that that might stifle innovation a little bit, staying in a small circle?

Joakim Bruchmann

No, because you still have user feedback.

Host

Okay.

Joakim Bruchmann

Right? So I actually think quite the opposite. I think we came from a world, and now I'm talking about the venture capital scene and how the fundraising environment was, especially before 2022, when sort of there was a little bit of a venture crunch. Back then you saw people just hiring and hiring and hiring, and when you spoke to investors, they wouldn't be asking what's your revenue, they'd be asking, you know, what's your hiring pipeline and how many employees are you. So being many employees is not something that we try to optimize for, rather the opposite.

Host

Makes sense, I guess. I mean, retail investing and neobrokers have disrupted traditional finance globally. Latest statistics show that the AUM in the neobroker market is chasing all-time high after all-time high. But what trends do you think will define the upcoming years of retail investing?

Joakim Bruchmann

Yeah, I think there's a few fundamental changes going on. I think the first and obvious one is that we have a new generation entering the space. So if you look at the average age at which people start to invest, it used to be in their 50s just like two decades ago. When I started at age 16, the average age was actually 50. Firstly because there wasn't like influencers preaching about stocks and stuff at the time, and then secondly there was like a clear technology

00:15:02

barrier. Like, it was pretty hard to open an investment account, and now that has evolved into something much more user-friendly, and it's become part of our everyday lives to think about the financial markets. So obviously that is the big trend that I think has sort of spurred the growth in the space. The second one is that alongside that you've seen critical infrastructure innovations. So fractional shares, that we are offering, is something that makes it a lot more user-friendly, a lot easier, and can be combined in a lot of very interesting ways. You've seen costs coming down, which once again amplifies more investors coming into the space. And then the third one is that you have seen a democratization of new asset classes. So I think crypto is the best example. Like, no one knew about crypto, and then in 10 years it's become, I think it's close to a trillion dollars of market cap, right? If crypto was a company, it would be one of the top five companies in the world. And I don't recall having seen that for the past 100 years, right? So you've had new assets, you've had technology catch up, and you've had a new generation of investors that really think about investing from quite early on, naturally. So if we then tap into why is there so much demand for investing, and why isn't it becoming more and more important, I think there's two critical factors. The first one is that you have sort of a huge wealth transfer, especially in the US but also in the EU. So our parents, now I say ours, but there's probably like 10, 15 years between us,

00:16:32

but let me just be young with you for a minute. Our parents probably have some money that we will soon inherit, and they were a quite wealthy generation, largely because of the housing market, right? So our generation will inherit money, and that needs to be put somewhere. And, well, now I forgot the other factor. I'm talking too much.

Host

I mean, speaking of, yeah, new assets and accessibility, private markets have now, yeah, opened for retail investors, with private equity ELTIFs and private credit funds. What's your take on this?

Joakim Bruchmann

I think it's very interesting. So just to touch on that. So before the new legislation came into force, you would basically have to be deemed a professional investor to invest into a private equity or a venture fund, and that would require you to invest a minimum of €100,000. That's defined by the EU. For some reason the EU believes that, no, you cannot invest in private equity or venture unless you're like super sophisticated. But there's no regulation on gambling. So why don't you go gamble? Like, investing your money in the best asset class historically, that's too toxic for you. So regulation is dumb. Like, as being a European, so much regulation does not make any sense. And I think there's trends changing right now, and you're trying

00:18:02

to deregulate for the first time in a few decades rather than the opposite, which I'm a huge proponent of. So right now what's happening is that basically the EU has issued new legislation, meaning that the threshold is being reduced to, I think it's virtually like €1 or 100 or something. So what the EU is trying to do is basically open up for new asset classes such as private markets. So I think it's very interesting, and I've been spending some time looking into it. I think one of the big obstacles is: one, how do you communicate it to a retail investor? Two, how do you make it liquid? Because typically those investments need to be held for like 7 to 9 years. And three, does private equity perform to the extent for a retail investor if you don't have leverage, right? Because effectively private equity is all about leverage. They typically, you know, invest 10% and then borrow the last 90%, right? So if you have to basically buy €100 worth of something and you only get €100 worth of exposure, then basically your returns are not that impressive anymore.

Host

I mean, as you just said, this is an issue which has not been tackled in the PE and VC market. But I mean, partly also due to user-friendliness, neobrokers have significantly lowered the barrier to entry for retail investors. Maybe also reflecting upon your investment strategy when you were a teenager, do you also think that they lowered the threshold for making uninformed investment decisions? And how do you see this balance between accessibility

00:19:32

and responsibility?

Joakim Bruchmann

Mhm. So I think the funny thing is, I come from like a super, super left-wing family. So I was brought up with, like, I'm tempted to say, alcohol all over and like free tits at family parties, right? But it was like a really hippie background that I come from. And funnily enough, I have like the most corporate liberal career that you can possibly have. So I sort of tell myself that I sort of understand both worlds, right? And I think every decision in life is bittersweet. If you go super liberal, then basically you're relying on the individual to make smart decisions, which is often the case, but might not. And then if you move in the other direction, you're protecting some people, but you're also protecting some smart people from themselves that arguably are smarter than the regulator who imposed the regulation. So I don't think regulation is that trivial. I think it's sort of a spectrum, and it's very hard. Everyone has their opinion on where we should be. But I think the worst examples I've seen, and like, I'm not a great example myself. Like, I started out terribly, but I still think it's a good investment. So I much rather want people to go out and lose some pocket money, as I did, and then start understanding what investment is like, because then they'll also understand why it's important to buy a property rather than rent, and all those very fundamental things in life. So I'm probably tilted towards: let people be stupid and then they learn from it,

00:21:03

and then let them be stupid when they're like students and don't have that much money, so they don't lose that much money, and then put them on the right trajectory and start being interested. But I've also seen, I think some areas of the crypto market are like a straight-up scam. And I think, you know, Trump and Melania's crypto coins recently are probably the best examples, sadly, right? The president of the US is literally robbing the population. So I think it's really hard to solve all those broken areas there are, with like people in Dubai selling trading courses and stuff. And regulators are doing the best they can, but it's very hard.

Host

But I definitely agree. I think that when it comes to investing, time is probably the biggest leverage you have, because, yeah, as you said, the earlier you get financially literate, the more time you have to use that knowledge. I mean, so far your journey sounds like a total success and a lot of fun, but do you sometimes regret moving from traditional finance, for example trading at Goldman Sachs, to now moving to the startup industry?

Joakim Bruchmann

Yes. Yes. Probably supposed to say no, right? But yes, I do. When times are tough, I think what comes to mind is that famous meme where the guy's walking with his girlfriend, and then another hot girl walks by, and then he looks back, right? And

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I think it is like that sometimes. Like, sometimes when you're not having a good day, it does feel like the grass is greener on the other side. But I've been on the other side, and there I thought the grass was greener on my current side, right? So I think it's just human nature to always think that I just need to do this and then it solves all my problems, and I've learned that it typically doesn't. Like, I've tried making decent money, that didn't make me that much happier. I've tried to, you know, take time off, that only lasted for so long. It's very, very hard to be in a permanent state of success and happiness. And there's been plenty of research released saying that almost everything in life is temporary, like a promotion, an exit, whatever. It typically lasts for 3 months, and then it just becomes the new normal for you, right? Unless it's about family and close relationships. That is what research shows. And although I know that, I tend to prioritize career way too much still. So I know it, but I'm not really living by it. But obviously everyone is having tough times. I was having a tough time on occasions when I was at Goldman Sachs. I'm still having a tough time as a founder. I think the founder job is the most extreme you can possibly have, because when something is going great, it's like being on a sports team and everything is just like happy days, and sometimes you just want to pull out the rope and find a chair, right? So it's like two extremes, and that is something that you need to learn to cope with, and

00:24:03

it's not for everyone.

Host

Yeah. I think it's just also basic human psychology that you always kind of want to have that thing that you currently don't have, right? But I mean, maybe looking at the hopefully bright future: imagine that we move forward, let's say 5 years, to 2030. What would you love Pluto Markets to be known for then?

Joakim Bruchmann

So 2030, that's in five years. I think by then what I would want to see is that we've actually managed to pull off the mission, which is building a modern product for everyone in the Nordics and hopefully beyond as well. I mean, this is a consumer startup, so obviously we want to change something for people. And what really is confirming to me is when I see someone that I don't know pulling out the phone with the Pluto app in the metro, right? It happened for the first time here last month, and I was just like so excited, almost went and talked with the person, right? But just seeing people adopt something, and not necessarily acknowledging how much work is put behind it and stuff, I think having something that thousands of people use on a daily basis is something that is quite substantial. I would also like to get rich, and, you know, everything else in my life just going extremely well. Still have my hair. But I think that

00:25:33

is what founders want. They want to make an impact, a dent in the world.

Host

I really love that, kind of "I made it" moment, when you see somebody that you don't know using your product.

Joakim Bruchmann

That is, I for sure haven't made it yet, but it's a first step.

Host

It's a very cool thing to notice, or to experience, for sure. And I mean, you were lucky to have experience in both traditional finance and fintech, and I think the line between those two is getting thinner and thinner by the day. But looking at rapid tech advancements and market shifts, is there maybe one piece of advice you could share for young professionals to kind of future-proof their career in finance?

Joakim Bruchmann

Yeah. So I think what has been working incredibly well for me is probably two things. One is, I managed to take risks. So I have never been afraid of failing. Like, I remember first week of school, when we were having lectures, I would put up my hand and ask if I didn't understand something. My mom was a journalist, so maybe that's why, she would always ask the stupid questions. But I've never been afraid of asking the stupid questions. And for a long time, especially when I started at university, I was the only one asking questions, and I just assumed that everyone understood what was going on, and I was so frustrated. And after three months we had the first exam, and I got the highest mark in the class,

00:27:03

and I was like, guys, what's going on? Like, am I the one who understands this the most? Then why haven't you asked any questions? So I think what I've done well is, if there's a person I've been looking up to, I've been reaching out, you know, asking to grab a coffee, or walking up to the person if I bumped into them on the street, and do these small things and expose myself, and also being willing to be rejected or look stupid in others' eyes. So I think that's probably the one thing. And the second thing I would say is that, I think there's a lot of people saying just pursue your dreams, and if you want to be an artist, go for it and stuff. But there are some really, really easy hacks you can do, like start out at an acknowledged firm, that will stick with you forever. Like, I was with Goldman for 3 years, and here I am, what, six years later, still that's what people sort of think about me, right? I could also have taken a job at a startup, and then things would probably have been looking a lot more difficult for me. So I think, you know, just like those CV stamps, they work. It's not the way it's supposed to be, but it's a fact.

Host

Makes a lot of sense. And I mean, this is the perfect example that there is no such thing as a stupid question, I guess.

Joakim Bruchmann

Mhm.

Host

So I believe in 2022 you had the opportunity to take Pluto to Y Combinator, which is, for those who don't know, probably the most prestigious

00:28:34

startup accelerator, in San Francisco. Could you share a little bit of this experience with us?

Joakim Bruchmann

Yeah. So I think that actually talks extremely well into what I said before about taking chances, because, you know, getting into Y Combinator is incredibly difficult. I think the acceptance rate is like, I don't know, half a percent or something, and the people that apply are already quite good, right? So my co-founder was like, why don't you bother? Like, we have [expletive] nothing. Like, we have a pitch deck, we don't know what we're doing, and we're not good enough. And I was like, well, we certainly won't get in if we don't take the chance, and it's not that much work. So we put together a very scrappy application. I mean, it's almost embarrassing, about how we wanted to build the Robinhood of the Nordics. And then we applied, and then I could see that they had started checking out my LinkedIn profile, and I was like, this is quite exciting. We got called for the interview, and what YC does with their interview is 10 minutes, right? And then after the 10 minutes they'll decide whether they want to invest half a million dollars or not. So it's like by far the shortest pitch I've ever done and by far the most impactful pitch I've ever done. Because once again, Y Combinator is a stamp on your resume, and your company's resume in this case. So I knew that this was going to be a sort of trajectory-changing investment. And it

00:30:04

was remote, it was during COVID. So we jumped on the call, and it was like Tom Blomfield, the founder of Monzo, who's like one of the biggest, you know, fintech entrepreneurs of our time, and it was like three, four other top guys who just built like insanely valuable companies. And there they were, grilling us for 10 minutes. And we thought it went terrible. Like, we were so sad afterwards. And what they told us was: if you get rejected, you get an email. If you get admitted or you get called in for a second interview, then we'll give you a call. And we didn't hear nothing. And we thought the company was going to die, because we said no to an investment just the day prior. And my co-founder was texting me, oh, I'm just going to, you know, take a temporary job as a cab driver. We were like super depressed. And then I was home alone, still depressed, the day after, and then my phone rang from a US number, and I was like, "This is interesting." And I took the phone, and there we were, getting admitted. Grabbed a cab, called our one employee we had at the time, and then we went and surprised my co-founder with the news. So that was how we got in. And obviously, you know, I've been at top performing environments before. I was interning with the Boston Consulting Group, that's like a very sort of high-performance environment. I was at Goldman Sachs, where, you know, I remember one guy who

00:31:34

on Monday morning just told me that he casually went and climbed Mont Blanc over the weekend, and that's just the people that were working there. And I think Y Combinator is the third time that I really got exposed to sort of a very crazy high-performance environment. Like, the people there were just, not necessarily experienced, but they were like geniuses, and very humble about it. So I think that is something that I will look back on forever and say, no matter how Pluto goes, whether we go bust or whether we make it, that is something I will value forever. And I think, frankly, it has changed the way I think about building a startup.

Host

Yeah, I think, kind of just to know that you should always shoot your shot, and it might get you somewhere, is very valuable, because, I mean, you can't really get anything worse than a no, right? But next to that, is there maybe a decision or a failure in your career that still has a lasting impact on how you approach challenges today?

Joakim Bruchmann

Yeah. I can't really think of anything concrete, but obviously I've been rejected multiple times. Actually, when I wanted to get my job at Goldman, it started two years before I graduated, where I had my first internship. It's like a spring internship, and I got rejected by 10 banks. The only bank that said yes to me was Goldman, which is the one I wanted the most. So funnily

00:33:04

enough, that's how it went. And also just being a founder. I mean, although you can look back and say, oh, then we raised an investment from Y Combinator, then we raised more money, and, you know, in hindsight things have been going quite well for us, then on the way there's been plenty of rejections. Like, when you go out and you raise a funding round, I mean, you probably pitch 50 investors and one ended up saying yes, right? So that means that 49 people say no. I think it's a worse job than trying to sell newspaper subscriptions by cold calling. I don't like it. I don't like fundraising, because it's so mentally tough, cuz people will be telling you, once again, how [expletive] ugly your baby is, right? And that's just how it is. But you just need that one person to buy into your vision, and that changes everything. So there's plenty of rejection along the way. And I also firmly believe that, I was actually reading this book now, it's turning into a long monologue, but I was reading this book called, I think it's called, Hidden Talent. It's like a bestseller, but basically it talks about what defines success, and is there any patterns if you look at people that are successful entrepreneurs. And if you look at the statistics, then immigrant founders are like 3x more likely to found a unicorn than people who've had a sort of normal, comfortable life. So I firmly do believe

00:34:35

that facing challenges is something that does make you a lot stronger, and that's sort of the mindset that you need to have: that yes, I got 49 rejections, but now I'm stronger than when I got the first rejection. Although, you know, the funding round is not moving, I'm moving, and then it will succeed eventually.

Host

I mean, I can hardly imagine what kind of a stressful situation it is to pitch this 10-minute pitch to Y Combinator, or even working as a trader is probably very stressful. How do you handle stress yourself?

Joakim Bruchmann

I'm quite bad at that, actually. I think one of the things that really shaped me, and I was doing this interview on Monday where I talked about my past in elite cycling as well. So I think I have a very competitive mindset. And as a trader, what you learn is that response times need to be within 30 seconds, right? You cannot have a client that wants to trade and then you answer two hours later. As a trader, it's your job to be online all the time when the markets are open and act extremely quickly, because the markets are moving. So that is great for everyone around you, because my investors can text me and I would literally reply within 30 seconds, because I'm used to that. Like, just don't think too much, just shoot your intuition and then take it from there. Rather say something than say nothing, right?

00:36:05

But it's also extremely stressful, because I almost get adrenaline when I get a message, because I know I got to reply, right? That's how I started out my career. So actually stress is something that I think is very, very difficult to handle as a founder, and I haven't really found the balance. Like, I haven't been drinking alcohol at all for the past 3 months, because I was reaching unhealthy stress levels and I knew I had to do something about it. So I cut all alcohol. I'm also trying to work out. And then I think I've been trying to not reply quickly and do all those things, but now I'm sort of changing my mindset, saying, "Okay, that's just who I am." And yes, that is stressful. Like, if I get a message and I'm at the dinner table with my family, then I would still pull up the phone and reply. Although I probably shouldn't, but I just have learned to acknowledge that that's who I am.

Host

I mean, we recognized, when we emailed you, we got the email back after 30 seconds or so. So, exactly.

Joakim Bruchmann

Yeah, definitely, I'm telling the truth. Yeah. And luckily enough, there was this venture capital influencer who said that one of the largest correlations between great founders, or like one of the most predicting factors, is how quickly they respond to messages. And I think that's probably [expletive], right? But he found the correlation, and it was just so much in my favor, because all my investors have been laughing at my response times, because they're like, "Yeah,

00:37:35

you can finish your lunch. Like, you don't have to reply right now."

Host

Well, I mean, if he's correct, sounds like you're all set. Yeah. No, but I mean, you told us that you started to invest at a very, very early age, and you tried to beat the market and recognized, oh, it's not that easy, or you probably can't. So we were interested, how do you personally invest? I mean, if you want to disclose. [...]

Joakim Bruchmann

Yeah. Disclaimer: this is no investment advice.

Host

Exactly, by the way.

Joakim Bruchmann

So personally, well, I don't have much money, right? Everything is sort of invested in the company, not because I put up money, but because I've been working at very low salaries for many years now, right? So it's sort of been draining my personal finances. So what I do personally, when I do have money, is that I like selecting my own stocks, right? So I think, you know, beating the market is difficult, but I don't think necessarily just buying an ETF is for everyone. So what I try to do is I select 10 to 20 stocks, and I have a diversified portfolio, but I also like it, right? So I have a preference. I want to select the stocks that I buy. So that's what I try to do: not be too active, but also not be too passive, and then select a diversified portfolio of stocks. And then there's a lot of tax reasons that I'm also trying to optimize

00:39:05

for. So in Denmark you actually have that investing in stocks is taxed more easily than investing in ETFs, because it's based on realized gains, not [unclear], I don't know what it's called, unrealized gains. So you actually have some tax arguments why it's better to invest in the underlying portfolio of stocks rather than an ETF.

Host

Are there certain sectors that you find particularly interesting?

Joakim Bruchmann

It's very cyclical, right? So I think obviously the defense industry has been doing quite well, and now not doing so well because of the presumed resolution on the war. So it's very cyclical. I would say, by and large, I'm a tech guy, right? I like to invest in tech companies that I understand and like to follow very closely. That has been playing out extremely well over the past 10 years, with a few exceptions. So I also think, you know, investing should also reflect who you are, because I think you have better odds of doing great if you invest in something that you understand. And in the perfect world, you can argue why you understand that stock better than the market does, right? So for me, I understand, well, I tell myself I understand businesses like Robinhood, like the incumbent in the space. I understand what they're doing extremely well, because I'm an industry person.

00:40:35

So I do think that I can actually generate more returns when I have an opportunity in those stocks. Now, I'm a CEO of a regulated company, so I can't just go and buy what I want. There's very much regulation in place. So I'm just trying to stay away from stocks for that reason myself. But I think that would be what I've done previously and what I would recommend for people.

Host

Yeah, I think it's important to really embrace your investments and believe in them. Otherwise, yeah, there's no real sense. But we want to, yeah, switch to a bit more personal note now. For those who may not know, you're actually also a very talented rapper. I listened to another podcast or interview, and there you shared a hilarious story about how this talent made you kind of a hero at the BCG office here in Copenhagen. So in that context, I'm curious: how important is it for young professionals to cultivate diverse interests beyond the technical skills? And yeah, does your passion for music help you maintain balance in your day-to-day life?

Joakim Bruchmann

So which podcast was that? Cuz I don't remember saying that. I probably did, but I just forgot. I have to look it up.

Host

I'll send you the link.

Joakim Bruchmann

Yeah, but it is true, and it's a funny story. So when I was interning with the Boston Consulting Group back in 2014, you're in a room where everyone is smart, everyone has great grades. Like, you

00:42:06

start looking for the sort of odd ones out, naturally, because it is quite a homogeneous crowd, right? So the story is that I was interning there. I thought it was like insanely hard work. Like, I was working so much, and I was like, "Wow, this is going to be a tough life." Like, studying was nothing compared to those six, seven weeks I did. But I was fortunate enough to be interning at the time where they had their biannual getaway, and this time around it was at [unclear]. So the entire company was going to [unclear] with the Norwegian, Swedish and Finnish offices, and it was like a 3-day trip. And at the end of the third day, there was this great gala, where apparently there would need to be a performance by somebody who had a special talent from each of the offices. And we're all getting pretty drunk, and then this talent show starts, and I can see that nobody from the Copenhagen office has prepared anything, right? So they start going up on stage, the Swedish office, Norwegian office. They have prepared for months, because there's quite a lot of prestige in it, right? And then the guy who interviewed me was poking me on the shoulder, and he was like, "We need a guy to go on stage in 10 minutes. We haven't prepared anything. It's very embarrassing. Didn't you write in your resume that you used to be a freestyle rapper?" And

00:43:36

I did, and I was one of the best in Denmark. It was like a nationally broadcast show called MCs Fight Night at the time, that was like the DM of freestyle rap, and I was doing that. And then he said, can you go on stage in 5 minutes? And I was like, well, I'm the intern, you know, there's like 600 people here, including my boss and my boss's boss and his boss, right? But [expletive] it, let's do it. And then I said, but go get me a beer very quickly. And then he goes on stage, he introduced, this is the Copenhagen office representative, and he starts saying, so we only have one person that's going to go on stage by himself, it's the intern. And people were like shocked, like, how can you throw your intern under the bus? And I go on stage, and then the DJ starts, I drop my shirt, and I have like a big tattoo on my arm, and people were like, this is such a transformation. And I started rapping, and people just went completely crazy, cuz I'm quite good at it, right? And no one had expected it. Like, there's not that many great rappers who get a job at BCG at the end of the day. So it was a very funny story. And it was not only that occasion, there's been multiple occasions, especially when you're part of those top performer environments, where what starts becoming interesting, it's not your good grades or the great work you do. It's actually those small diverse things that no one else has, right? Because everyone knows

00:45:06

that you have good grades and that you're smart and that you're hardworking, like everyone is. So it starts being more and more interesting to hear about how you're different. I hope that answered your question.

Host

It did. I mean, it's pretty impressive, and it's a good advice to stand out. I think it doesn't make a real difference how you stand out, at least you do. So we talked about Pluto in 2030, but what do you think is next for Pluto now? Expanding across the Nordics and beyond?

Joakim Bruchmann

I think it's still a bit too early. So I think one of the cons of being such a small team that we are is that we really, really, really need to focus. And I think in my mind, the sort of north star for us is finding product-market fit. And basically we define product-market fit by having a product so good that it sort of sells itself, right? Or that people tell each other about it organically. And we're not there yet. I think we have the best investment platform in the market, and we have the cheapest. But we still need to do some work around making it so good that people just tell their friends about it because they're so excited. Like, it might be overly optimistic, but you probably heard about ChatGPT from a friend, right? Because people were so excited that they just could not not tell you. And

00:46:36

I don't think that's the level of product-market fit we're targeting, but we do need a product so good that there is some sort of word-of-mouth organic traction, and it's still all about product for us. We think about this as a super long game. So we don't necessarily need to see like massive growth over the next 6 months. I am still passionate about solving the problems for our users and building something that's significantly better, because I think at the end of the day that's what works.

Host

I mean, let's hope that this podcast could maybe become the first stepping stone in the right direction. So to all the listeners out there, if you have a friend that's curious about investing or neobrokers, tell them about Pluto. And yeah, Joakim, thank you so much. I think this was a very, very interesting conversation. You shared some very valuable insights, and I think also we learned a lot, and I think our listeners can learn a lot from this. And getting back to this stepping stone, where can our listeners learn more about Pluto, and where can they find the platform?

Joakim Bruchmann

Yeah. So I think the two main channels we have is our website, pluto.markets. That is our name, that is our domain, so it's quite simple. And then the other place is following me on LinkedIn. I'm quite communicative, so I tend to break major product releases on my personal LinkedIn, and I also talk a lot about career and motivation and drive and fintech and financial markets. So that is probably where it's best to follow.

Host

Yeah, then you've heard it, I guess. And

00:48:06

as always, subscribe, leave a comment if you have an interesting thought to this episode. Joakim, thank you so much for taking some time off.

Joakim Bruchmann

My pleasure. Thank you so much.