Joseph Pinto

This transcript was generated automatically (Spotify transcript) and then edited for readability: names and obvious mis-hearings corrected, filler words removed, speaker labels added where the speaker is clear. Passages that could not be understood are marked [unclear]; short omitted passages are marked [...]. Timestamps are approximate. The recording is the authoritative version.

Host 00:00:14

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Campus To Capital. Today we're joined by Joseph Pinto, the CEO of M&G Investment. Yeah, Joseph, thank you so much for taking some time. Great to have you here today.

Joseph Pinto

Thank you both, it's a pleasure.

Host

Awesome. Yeah. Also, hello from me, Joseph. It's great to meet you and I think we have a lot of topics on the agenda today. But before we start off, could you maybe briefly introduce yourself to our audience and also tell them what it means to be the CEO of an asset management firm that roughly manages $400 billion?

Joseph Pinto

Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Joseph Pinto. I live between Paris and London. I run the asset management business of M&G. We are based in London. I commute actually every weekend for family reasons. I very much enjoy the job. It's extremely dynamic. Being in the asset management industry today is fascinating, I have to say. Many things happen all the time and we are here and we have a purpose, which is basically to help people retire better and provide them with more savings ultimately at the end. Well, that's one of the goals that we have. And I'm very, you know, honored to run the asset management, great firm, that has a lot of, let's say, added value, high product, high capabilities, delivered to clients around the world.

Host

Now, thank you so much for the introduction.

00:01:45

So you spent over a decade at AXA Investment Managers before moving on to Natixis and now leading the M&G investment management business. So, looking back, what were the key milestones and learning curves across these transitions?

Joseph Pinto

So are you referring to the beginning of my career or are you just referring to the most recent experience?

Host

I would rather, I mean, you can tell us about both, but I was referring to the most recent.

Joseph Pinto

I think, first of all, I started, I think it's interesting to know that I've started with an engineering degree. Then I moved to investment banking. I learned a lot about finance, but practically I didn't have any class in finance in my engineering school, one of the top in France. Then I decided to do an MBA in the US, effectively to have that set of skills in complement to my engineering degree. Went to New York, at Columbia University. That was a great experience that exposed me also to, let's say, the international population, the ones who will be leading key firms in the future. So it was first a great exposure to, let's say, international finance when I was in New York. Then I had various, let's say, business experiences: management consulting at McKinsey, a few banks, then AXA IM, then Natixis IM, as you said, then M&G. I think throughout my career, what studies brought me, and it's a message for you as well, is basically to help to solve problems, understand key strategic topics, know how to [unclear] them, dig into them, be curious and basically be able to deep dive on various different topics.

00:03:16

That was done as well at McKinsey, and AXA IM taught me pretty much everything that I know today in asset management. I started in distribution, then I moved as head of product strategy, then COO. So I did a lot of the jobs that encompass an asset manager today, which helped me grow in the organization like I did, and even keep going at Natixis, which was a bigger firm, even more international. They have a strong presence in the US. And ultimately becoming a CEO of an asset...

Host

And when we talk about your prior experiences and what they constitute, I think it's not just about where you have worked, but also with who you have worked with, right? And I mean, throughout your career you had exposure to EMEA, LatAm and APAC markets. And I'm very curious about what type of leadership knowledge did you take from having such great exposure to different cultures and markets?

Joseph Pinto

I think it's an excellent question. We don't operate the same across the world. We need first to understand the culture we operate in.

00:04:48

Japan is a really interesting culture, extremely respectful. You need to understand the codes. When you lead Japanese people, you need to respect them. You need some time to let them lead some initiatives and understand where they want to go and help them a bit. The rest of Asia, especially North East Asia, let's say Greater China, it's a very, very different dynamic as well. They tend to want to go very fast. They have the culture of trying fast, eventually failing, fixing, moving again and again and again at a pace that I've [unclear] before. So you need to adjust as well to those cultures and see how you want to lead to the results you want for the greater company, while effectively each culture is very, very different. What is slightly more emotional, I have to say, even if I would say Swedish, British, French or Italians are different, but we tend to have similar codes, and we operate not as one unit in Europe but as more homogeneous units, I would say. So these are effectively fascinating cultures that help me day-to-day in the way I manage the firm.

Julius Ambrosius

I really like that perspective. [...] And I think this is a very, yeah, hot topic for the asset management industry as well. So could you maybe tell us how digitalisation is transforming the industry right now, both in portfolio construction and in client engagement?

Joseph Pinto 00:06:20

So data, data analytics, data science, generative AI at large, I should say, it's a massive topic everywhere, including in asset management. I think it has many potential use cases. The first one is how you can improve your investment process, how you can use AI eventually to run clients' money. We have, by the way, a strategy that is using AI, but there is always a human overlay that's quite critical today to do that. But basically it's a way to manage clients' money differently from using just human beings. So that's one aspect of it. And we launched a strategy actually a few years ago and we want to test it now more and more and see how it corresponds to the client needs. The second aspect of it is, using AI is having augmented employees somehow. We all have access to Copilot in the firm. We can use it and mix it between public data and company proprietary data, better understanding and [unclear] in reviewing, analysing and moving forward in our day-to-day job. You could be in the firm, you could be in operations, you could be managers or sales individuals or marketing executives. AI can be quite useful for what you do on a daily basis. So that's what we provide to all our employees. And last but not least, you can effectively use it to increase efficiency by effectively being faster, being much faster in delivering some tasks.

00:07:53

You can today use AI and provide the first draft of an RFP, [unclear] or writing a report. So these are the kind of things that can be done quite easily using AI, and with more and more of it.

Host

So it's basically exposed all over your value chain.

Joseph Pinto

It is, absolutely, and each of my key executive members are using AI, trying to get the best out of it, incentivizing their employees to do so as well.

Host

Great. I mean, I think the way I see it is, I think that data-driven decision making will most definitely increase efficiency, as you just said. And I also believe that at your firm and at other asset managers, a lot of junior analysts will be very happy that more and more digital technologies will be employed, as it probably will ease off a lot of the tedious tasks that they have to do. However, I still think it's very important that there is probably a good, reasonable interplay between human expertise and then technology driven outcomes and operations. And have you already established a success formula to balance these two things, or are you still working on it?

Joseph Pinto

I think we are still at the beginning of it. The use cases that we've developed demonstrate that they can only be successful if we have the great interaction between human beings and the machines.

00:09:25

Back to your question, if I pick up an example in private markets, we know that in private markets we can have access to a lot of data to analyse a portfolio. It could be private credit, it could be private equity. Most of this information can be everywhere. It's often what we call unstructured data in our language, and sometimes analysts have to read tons and tons of report pages, summarize them and then help the portfolio manager make the right decision when they analyze this company, for example, in all its aspects. Using AI can massively accelerate that key takeaway and compiling different reports quite easily. Yet, you know, the machine is far from being perfect. I suspect you use AI as well, and there are mistakes made sometimes. So you always need to improve the quality of it. And so you need the human interaction, you need the human, and especially when you want to innovate and to find a different way to analyse things, you need a human brain for that. So this is why the mix between the two is critical at this stage.

Host

I see.

Joseph Pinto

I think it's up to each of us to use it the right way, as opposed to codify the way a human being has to behave in front of the machine. But it's more how you combine both. And here you can get the best out of AI, but with your eyes wide open to the limits of AI as it is today.

Host 00:10:58

No, definitely. I think you really got to be careful, and I assume a lot is also just happening on the data side, not on the AI side, because there's this thing that if the data is good, the output will also be good, right? So it's also critical to clean the data beforehand, right?

Joseph Pinto

So data is a topic, absolutely right. The essence of everything we do is about data, independently of AI, I have to say, and we do have effectively a data strategy. We have a data department. Data belongs to everybody. Everyone in the company has to own some set of data. It could be on product characteristics by the product team. It could be some data related to operations, on client reporting, you name them. It's all across the value chain. You have some data, client information as well, client data that you get through client interviews, when you meet clients, our sales teams meet clients, so on and so forth. When you share those data, when you distribute those data, you need to make sure that they are clean, that they're accurate, delivered on time. So there's a challenge for any company, as we see the explosion of the number of data available today, and you need to make sure that the way you deliver them is the right way, and the quality of them is indeed critical if you don't want to effectively draw wrong conclusions. So this is why we all have bigger and bigger data departments, to make sure we have a sound process of selecting the right data, eventually transforming the data.

00:12:29

You can combine data to get new data, and then, as we said, [unclear] data the right way.

Host

That makes a lot of sense. So another theme, and I mean it's pretty much related to AI because of the high energy consumption of the big data applications, is ESG, which has also become critical across the asset management industry. How does M&G integrate ESG considerations across both public and private assets?

Joseph Pinto

So first and foremost, as a group, M&G, we want to do good for the planet. I think it's important. And for the people. There are two themes that are very close to our heart as a firm. They are also attached to the values of the company, and they're around a resilient planet and resilient societies. And we tend to have a number of activities around those two themes. When it comes to what we do in asset management in particular and what we deliver to clients, first of all, we need to make sure that it complies with regulation. We apply regulation everywhere, be it the European regulation or UK, and we know how stringent the regulations are when it comes to sustainability or ESG. We are very proud to have a number of ESG strategies, both in public and in private markets. We also have some strategies that provide impact, both in public equities but also a lot in private markets.

00:14:04

That's where you can measure the impact of what [unclear]. It could be also slightly beyond climate, could be on other things, and you can ensure those impacts. So we constantly have those dialogues with clients. We've recently won business, big business actually, from a continental European bank, precisely with an impact approach. So to tell you that clients do care, investors care about making sure that we manage those criteria. We have invested a lot in the area. We have a sustainability team, centralized, that can provide, let's say, the norm and provide the key processes to all the portfolio managers. And then it's at the level of each investment desk, equity, fixed income or private markets, to implement those and make sure they respect the guidelines as they've been defined, either by the company or by the clients themselves.

Host

I think, I mean, it's the current situation we're in. And also, I think with the growing global awareness for sustainability, I think it's great that ESG is gaining more and more relevance in the financial markets. But obviously, this also comes with potential challenges and risks, right? Because, I mean, you need to meet certain regulatory standards, there might be the risk of greenwashing. And then also, I think in that sense you also need to manage and work with the client expectations, right? So I wanted to ask, what are the biggest challenges when it comes to ESG in your eyes?

Joseph Pinto 00:15:35

I think I'd love to first make a comment before we go to your question, which actually makes a lot of sense. The first one is, we did talk a lot about sustainability in our industry during COVID. During COVID, the planet was less polluted. [unclear] all of us as human beings. I'm sure you remember those dolphins not far from Venice in Italy, which was quite [unclear] if you think about it. But it did reflect a lot on what we should do, what human beings should do. [unclear] and you all know how the topic of the temperature of the planet is key, and we all want to make sure we can control that temperature increase over the next years. There are targets [unclear] and even beyond. So it's important for players like us to respect those guidelines and to do good also for the planet. So more recently, there have been a lot of debates or challenges, mostly coming from the US. I'm not going to come back to [unclear], but the US seems to have gone a different way now, at least more recently, with the recent election there. And it's their own decision. We just have to respect whatever they want to do on their own. But yet we still see a strong demand coming from European investors, whereas in the US it's become a bit politicized, I have to say.

00:17:08

But I won't comment more than that. I'm sure you can read it as well, as much as we can. And then when you look at the Asian investors, I very much like the way they look at ESG differently from Europe. They tend to be extremely pragmatic. They want to see what's in it for their investment returns, but also they want to do good for the planet. Part of Asia is affected by pollution. If you look at China, they are heavily affected, being one of the key factories of the world, as you probably know. And therefore they feel it every day, that they have to place some ESG criteria, and some environmental criteria in particular, to have a better quality of life for their population. It will have an impact otherwise in the long term on the health system, in the way people, you know, get sick, die, so on and so forth. So it's all in the economic interest of those countries to have a program when it comes to ESG. So, to your question, we do have a set of guidelines. We have a very [unclear] set of those. We do make sure that we don't greenwash. We have an anti-greenwashing program that gives you everything to make sure that whatever we commit to, we indeed deliver against that commitment. Now, to be clear, some of the sustainable strategies that we have may not please all the clients. Some clients may say, I want fewer sustainability constraints and more investment returns, and we have that fiduciary responsibility.

00:18:41

Having said that, when you look at the mutual funds, we have [unclear]. We have many that respect ESG criteria, the European regulation for SFDR, and most of them are Article 8, or some of them are also Article 9. So we have a strong set of, as I said, guidelines and processes that we respect, that we implement. And on top of it, there is another [unclear] coming from the compliance function within the asset manager that reviews what we do, to make sure that we can deliver indeed, and they can check what we said we're going to be doing. It is, how can I say, a promise we make to clients, how we can demonstrate to the client that those processes are very robust. We deliver the promise when it comes to ESG.

Julius Ambrosius

Makes a lot of sense. But in that context, I'm very curious, because [...] So in that context, based on your, yeah, maybe empirical knowledge, can ESG be a performance driver? Or is it a constraint investors need to manage?

Joseph Pinto

I would not call it a constraint. I would just call it a factor. And today we have to integrate those factors for the long term. Now, I'm sure there are, I can tell you many cases where ESG did well for investment.

00:20:13

If I look at the topic of, you know, diversity and inclusion, for example, which is also part of ESG, as you know, for firms, there are statistics that show that firms that have stronger diversity between men and women, for example, and minorities as well, integrating minorities, tend to outperform the ones who have less diversity. So there have been statistics where those effectively factors do create value for clients. Having a strong G, strong governance at large, having a strong independent board that can check what the executive management is doing, is also key. Ultimately, having a diversified board to have the proper challenge of the executive, it's key. Having a diversified executive committee, as I mentioned, is key as well. So it's very easy to understand why, you know, the G factor makes sense. Two, you can reverse your question differently and look at the fact that societies have to improve the way we live on the planet. I mean, I would not want you or your children tomorrow, hopefully one day, to live on a planet that is 3 to 5° higher than what it is today. It would be unbearable, and frankly the return on the portfolio would become totally irrelevant at that stage. So this is what we have to do, what's good for the planet, and to have a sustainable return provided to investors in [unclear] 200 or even 1000 years.

00:21:44

So that's what we all have to [unclear]. That's why I will never oppose those two concepts. Having said that, when you understand that [unclear] wants to do what's right when they invest in those areas: energy transition is a key topic. It requires a lot of investment in the space of infrastructure. So you can do developments that support and that do what's good for the planet while doing a great performance. [unclear], we do some of those as well. So we should never oppose those two. I would rather broaden the topic and see how you can [unclear] business opportunities that will ultimately support the planet, to make it a winner.

Host

I think you're making a very good point on the diversity here, because I think everybody who has had experience in working with a diverse team has most definitely experienced that having access to a greater set and greater variety of knowledge and experience will most definitely lead to more creative ways of finding solutions, and also to higher quality in finding solutions to problems. But when you talk about longevity, I think, I mean, M&G is one of the largest asset managers in Europe and you work with a great variety of clients, such as banks, pension funds, sovereign wealth funds and many more. And how do you establish trust, accountability and a long term vision when working with such a great variety of clients that also may have very different needs?

Joseph Pinto 00:23:17

So as I said before, we have a purpose, we have a strategy. We don't want to be everything to everybody. We need to pick up the areas where we believe we can add value to clients. And then we need to make sure we have the right talents within the company, who will be here to deliver the value that is expected. I believe we have fantastic talents within the asset management business, starting with our portfolio managers, research department, marketing, distribution and all the support functions, including operations or control functions, to make the business stay safe in the long term. So that's how we build a successful business, that's how we maintain it. It's a business that was built actually more than 100 years ago, as far as M&G is concerned. So as far as we are concerned, we want to be active. We are not in passive, we are just in active. So we defined who we want to be, active management, and we gave ourselves the means to deliver superior investment performance to clients in equities, in fixed income, what we call public markets, or multi asset as well, and in private markets. That's the promise that we make. We are not everywhere, even in public or in private markets. We are mostly European, and more Asian as we speak. We've developed investment capabilities as well because we know that we live in a competitive world, and we want to keep our competitive edge in the areas that we have chosen to compete and to excel in.

Host 00:24:48

So talking about talent, [...] So how do you track and also develop talents, yeah, in your corporation?

Joseph Pinto

It's an excellent question. I will answer it by telling you what we tell clients. So we have a set of very successful portfolio managers. They've been with us. They are excellent. They are supported by all the ecosystem that I mentioned before, the research, all the support functions, access to all the information that they need. They work in teams. And so it's a team based approach. Many of our successful PMs, or extremely successful PMs, have been with us for more than 20 years, 20, 25 years, so quite a long, you know, let's say, length of service within M&G. What we're doing as well is to prepare the next generation of talents, and the next after the next one, and so forth. And if we go down that route, it starts after university or school. So we built historically a very solid graduate program. We've hired people out of school, students out of school, we train them, we put them in the right position within the investment teams, within distribution, within operations, across the value chain, to make sure that these will be the leaders of tomorrow, one day, of M&G, and we've done that every year.

00:26:21

If I'm more specific, when I look at some of the lead portfolio managers that we have, some of them, and they are some of the key leaders today, were graduates. They've done most of their career, if not all their career, within M&G. So they themselves are supported by, historically, some graduates. [unclear] started 15 years ago with us and they are still here. I'm not pretending that we can keep all of them. Everybody wants to have a career. Sometimes they want to leave the firm [unclear]. Growing, for sure. Everybody wants to grow, and we try to offer as many opportunities as possible to all our talents. We don't succeed all the time, I'll be very open with you. But we try to succeed as many times as possible. So it all starts at the beginning. We have this great graduate program that basically has demonstrated over the past decades its success.

Host

Nice. And I think one thing that I view when I talk to other people in the field, I think one major requirement for young talent when they enter the industry is that they have a great sense of intellectual curiosity, because that is kind of needed to show them the ropes, right? But then showing them the ropes and kind of navigating them through the start of their career, that still needs to be done by the firm and the managers in the firm, which requires great leadership.

00:27:52

And when we talk about great leadership on a greater scale, you briefly mentioned the political uncertainty in the US earlier. And I think the macro market is actually impacted by a lot of different variables right now, such as the geopolitical tension that, I mean, you have in the US, and in the UK you have growing inflationary pressures. And then there's also a macroeconomic uncertainty coming with that. And how do you guide M&G as a big financial institution through these market uncertainties?

Joseph Pinto

It's an excellent question. There are two aspects of it. If I may, because this is the question asked by our clients as well to us: how do we manage the money of clients with those uncertainties? Well, you know what, that's the job of our investment teams. Their job today is to deliver performance and help our clients navigate through those uncertainties and make sure they can still deliver the performance that is expected. So it's all about investment philosophy, investment process, having a team based approach and making sure that whatever risk you take in the portfolio, it's well within the risk appetite that has been defined. And it's a well calculated risk. Basically that's what it means. And ultimately deliver what it takes in terms of value to clients. For the rest, I tend to, first, you need to understand the ecosystem you live in, and effectively the geopolitical situation is not what it was a few years ago, the economic situation of Europe.

00:29:25

So this is Asia also, it's, you know, [unclear] a lot, as you know. And for me, at my level, it's again back to: stick to what you're very strong at, deliver the value that clients are expecting. We live in a world where any investor, be it a US investor, an Asian investor and for sure a European investor, wants to diversify his portfolio. And by using diversification, there are always fantastic products that M&G can [unclear]. It goes to those investors wherever they sit. It's up to us to see which country we want to go after, which customer segments, and you listed those segments: companies, pension funds, distributors, [unclear] we want to go after, in which of those markets. That's by being extremely focused. But [unclear] go in areas that are too adventurous for us, areas where we don't have the expertise. We will not try to go, and stick to what we are good at. We still want to innovate. We keep developing new ideas, new products for clients within the set of competences that we have developed. Whenever we don't have the competency, if we see the growth in the market, the potential growth in a specific area that requires means that we don't have, and we believe that despite the current turmoil that area will keep growing over the years,

00:30:56

in the case of private credit, for example, then we buy companies. We bought, for example, a Swedish based private credit firm, or direct lending firm, called P Capital Partners, announced in the first half of the year, and we are extremely [unclear] to promote them moving forward. So that's how we deliver the strategy. We stick to it and then make sure that we can deliver the value to clients and also create the profits we also want to deliver to the shareholders.

Host

So you just talked about private credit, and I mean the private markets have, yeah, in recent years seen a significant increase, yeah, especially for retail investors. So in your opinion, what are the biggest differences between private and public markets in terms of liquidity, transparency, but also investor mindset?

Joseph Pinto

I think there is a space for both public and private. If you look at the size, if you include real estate in the private market category, that has existed for a long time, it's about the same size in the world, or relatively similar size. And if you are an investor, why would you benefit only from investment opportunities in half of the world, roughly half of the set of investment opportunities, which would naturally be public markets? Why not have access to private markets as well?

00:32:28

So frankly, that's where indeed there has been some regulatory evolution, especially in continental Europe and in the UK, with what we call the ELTIF, the European Long Term Investment Fund, and its equivalent in the UK called LTAF, where we can facilitate the access of retail customers to market. So indeed it comes with liquidity conditions, suitability. You need to always make sure you have the right product for the right clients, but also training of the intermediaries who promote the product, the financial advisors who could promote those kinds of strategies to customers. What you don't want is to have mis-selling. You need to make sure that whatever makes sense for the clients, we are here for the long term, and whoever tries to have shortcuts and quick wins usually pays the hard bill a few years after. So rather we do it well than not well. Now, fundamentally, why are private markets growing? You made some of those remarks, but it's simple. We live in a world where banks also are more and more regulated. You have more and more pressure on the capital that they need to hold to provide lending, banking services to their own clients. And we also live in a world

00:34:00

where, thanks to the growth of the economy, the GDP growth, it is supported by the growth of, let's say, companies. More and more companies are created. More and more companies, thankfully, are successful in any country. For those companies, whenever they want to grow, they need to borrow money to develop their project, [unclear] products and services, and deliver to clients. The first lenders historically have been banks. A company, a midcap company, wants more money, they go to a bank, effectively a loan with some financial conditions. The banks do it. Banks can no longer do that at the same level as they used to because of the regulatory constraints, the famous Basel 3, Basel 2 first and Basel 3 constraints. Looking at, starting with the US, the US market has shifted so much that now the private credit category, or private credit, let's say, providers, have replaced banks somehow. Roughly speaking, 2/3 of whatever loans are given to companies are owned by asset managers with private credit activities, 1/3 by banks. Look at Europe, we are still roughly the opposite: not 2/3, one third by private credit. So therefore it's very easy to understand that the more the GDP grows, the more companies grow, and the more you will see the growth of the private credit category.

00:35:33

Following in Europe what happened in the UK recently. So for sure that category will keep growing, not necessarily at the expense of public markets. It's just that those markets are operating differently. Private markets get also more and more regulated, which makes sense for customers ultimately.

Host

Interesting, because I think one thing that I'm personally very, very curious about is asset backed lending when it comes to private credit and alternative investments. And I recently read some forecasts that were both pretty optimistic. One was very, very optimistic and said that by 2035 the asset backed lending market is going to be worth 2.3 trillion, which would be, I think, almost an 11% annual growth rate from now on. Another one stated that it would be at 1.3 trillion in 2035. It would still be a decent growth rate, which apparently seems to be driven by increasing demand for more flexible liquidity solutions, but then also for lenders to have lower risk lending opportunities. And I was wondering, what is your stance on this? And are you also relatively optimistic on such a good growth for asset backed lending activities?

Joseph Pinto

So it's an excellent question. Asset backed finance is what we talk a lot about these days with investors. There are different kinds of things: could be real estate debt, could be private credit, it could be specialty finance, leasing, everything.

00:37:06

We've seen the growth of it in the past. Any report, I'm sure the one you read, there are so many others, they all converge on the fact that this is growing and this will keep growing in the future. The exact number, I'll leave it to the experts [unclear], optimism or less optimism. We do know, as I mentioned before, the fundamentals are here, as I explained, why this category of assets will grow in the future. Having said that, as far as we are concerned, we're going to make sure that we buy the right credit, build the right credit for you, the right level of risk, and we can control that risk, which is why we invest a lot into research that supports the portfolio managers who select it. But yes, indeed it is for the [unclear] industry in Europe as well, as much as European private [unclear].

Host

So looking back at, yeah, everything you've done throughout your career, what are the most important skills and also the mindset that helped you succeed in this very competitive and high paced industry?

Joseph Pinto

So if I put myself in your shoes, this is your question: how would I manage my career if I were to start it over again? [...]

00:38:40

[...] [...] You need to keep learning almost every day, every week, [unclear]. So that's that. Curiosity is probably one aspect. You need to [unclear] the people you meet. I think it's critical that you develop as many connections as possible. We are more than ever in an interconnected world. I do have to say I'm a bit worried when I look at companies that allow people to work from home too much. I think flex work is fine. I do benefit from it. Having said that, you need to make sure you interact with people as much as possible, especially the young generation. If you guys want to be trained, you need to make sure that the leaders are around you all the way along, so that you can see how they behave, how they interact, how they make decisions. You will learn so much from it. And by the way, AI will not help you on this one. This is a human interaction. You need to learn how to deal with that. It's a critical set of skills that will bring you as high as possible in your career. At the end of the day, you don't pick up the most technical individual whenever there is a potential, you know, promotion within the team, but also the individual who can lead the others by example, can let the others shine, can be a great team player and have the long term perspective.

00:40:10

Think collectively and not just individually. So this is what I would have in mind as your compass moving forward. The second advice I would give you is try, at least initially, different opportunities. You don't know exactly which environment you would like, and those environments for sure will evolve over time. It's clear. Yet you want to test different environments and feel where you can [unclear] and where you can have fun as well. Enjoy what you do, it's super critical. Don't go for a job because it's only well paid, and if it's boring, [unclear]. After a while you will leave that job right away. So pick what you enjoy, pick where you believe you develop yourself and stretch yourself all the time. Don't remain in too comfortable a position as well. Try to stretch yourself if you're ambitious and want to go. Last but not least, [unclear]. It was easy, easy, easy to say, probably, when I started 30 years ago or more, advice that I received from, you know, [unclear] the sectors that are growing. That's how we used to [unclear] it 30 years ago. It was easy to plan, to say, well, this industry will grow, this industry less, so on and so forth.

00:41:40

We looked at, you know, studies, and it was relatively predictable. So you still have to do that, but I do have to say as well, with one element that is still unclear: how would AI affect those industries moving forward? So as much as it will create opportunities, it would also affect some of those sectors and make them, you know, less relevant for you actually in the future. So you need to go eyes wide open in a world that is transforming itself. This is why my advice was probably more on the first [unclear]. Be open, get a lot of experience, and then employers will hire you even for a new job, for something else moving forward, while AI will transform many of our industries. So you need to embrace AI, not be afraid of it, and as long as you have your set of skills and values, you will do well.

Konstantin Girst

Well, thanks a lot. I think these are some very good insights for every young professional that's interested in buy side finance or asset management. But to kind of expand on the advice that you just shared with us just now. [...] And I think we're recording this episode in the middle of September. [...]

00:43:12

So I think having the opportunity to speak to the CEO of a great firm like M&G here is very interesting, because I was wondering if you could maybe share your opinion on what you think are some crucial hard skills and soft skills that highly qualified candidates for internship positions should have?

Joseph Pinto

So first of all, it's a very competitive place, you know that. So we interview candidates from many different universities. We like the diversity, like, you know, clever students that have done well at school. [...] That's quite important. Two, do have as many extracurricular activities as possible. We like to have in front of us people who are extremely correct, people who try to have a purpose. [...] We love to have that diversity of thoughts, as I mentioned before as well. So I think the environment you evolve in gives you all the chance for you to succeed. Do take the opportunity to try all of those, but try it really hard there, because at the end, when I review resumes sometimes, I'm impressed by the quality of what is [unclear], amazing.

00:44:45

We don't have enough job proposals for the resumes we see. So you're all extremely great. Try to develop something that is unique, that will make you different from the others, but that is truly authentic, and by telling your story that way, you will basically come across as someone different, and that can be a great complement, as a team player, to the other recruits who will have engaged eventually. But first and foremost, do enjoy and do have fun in everything you do, and diversify yourself as much as possible.

Konstantin Girst

Awesome. Thank you. I think that's a great piece of advice and also a great ending note for today's episode. Joseph, thank you again so much for your time. I really enjoyed this conversation, and I think, based on the covered topics, Julius also had a very good time.

Julius Ambrosius

It was great, yeah.

Konstantin Girst

Yeah, so thank you so much, and also thank you so much to our audience for tuning in, and make sure to be back in two weeks' time. And until then, as usual, check out our LinkedIn, Instagram. And also, if you're curious about M&G and further insights on their strategy, make sure to go on their corporate website and read up on what you're interested in. Thank you.

Joseph Pinto

Thanks. Thank you, boys. It was a real pleasure for me. Have a great day.

Konstantin Girst

Thank you.