Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

This transcript was generated automatically (Spotify transcript) and then edited for readability: names and obvious mis-hearings corrected, filler words removed, speaker labels added where the speaker is clear. Passages that could not be understood are marked [unclear]; short omitted passages are marked [...]. Timestamps are approximate. The recording is the authoritative version.

Host 00:00:13

Well, welcome to a new episode of Campus To Capital. I hope all of our listeners had a good summer. I mean, we've been on break for a couple of weeks now, but now we're finally back and we're back with a very, very, very exciting and interesting guest today. Today we're talking with Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski and she has had multiple leadership positions at UNICEF, the Clara Lionel Foundation, Global Citizen, and now she's the Chief Strategy Officer at Project CETI, which is an NGO at the forefront of innovation that works on interspecies communication. Well, so nice to have you on here today, Fiona.

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

Thank you so much for having me. I'm such a fan of the show, really appreciate the opportunity.

Host

Thank you. Thank you for being here. So let's jump right into it. You hold a Bachelor's in politics and Master's in Global Affairs, International Development and Humanitarian Aid. So what caused the interest to work in the field of NGOs, charities, etcetera, and what should one bring to the table if they want to work in a similar field?

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

Yeah, thank you. So I actually grew up on a farm in Michigan in a 300 person town, but we always had the news on in our house and always had a real interest in social issues from a young age for that. And then in 9th grade, I took actually a peace and justice class and we had to pick a policy and write a brief on it, really explore it in depth. And I picked the HIV AIDS crisis and it just opened my eyes so tremendously to the inequity around healthcare, discrimination, bias, and also with the amazing work of ACT UP and the AIDS quilt at the time, just how art and community and culture can create movements and create change.

00:01:45

And I really just, I wanted to contribute, you know, I've always been drawn to the question and it's the through line through my career. How do you make people care in a real, not just a performative way? And so I got, you know, involved in community service, then really dove further into that particular issue and it just set me off on this path of working in nonprofits. And I think I love the question of what should one bring to the table? I think the first thing is deep understanding and adaptability. And part of that is doing the work for the sake of the work, right? It's so OK to want an amazing career and a great job and of course be able to provide the life you want for yourself, but always be connected to your why, why you're doing the work. And for me, I think that that shouldn't be about me. It should be about the legacy and impact of the work itself. And I think that's why it's so important to really understand what is needed about a given issue from the perspective of the people at the center of that issue and why it's so important to support local leadership. And to me, that's the job of anyone who is in this field, to bring all that to the table.

Host 00:03:17

I mean, I think you most certainly contributed at the interesting prior career stations you've had before. But to get to the why of Project CETI, which is, I mean I introduced it earlier briefly, but I think if someone knows best, it's you. So could you also introduce our listeners to the project's general operations and the agenda, and also your specific tasks within?

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

Absolutely. So Project CETI is an interdisciplinary, scientific nonprofit organization. We're based in the United States and in Dominica in the Eastern Caribbean, and our mission is to translate the communication of sperm whales. And really the vision of the organization is that by translating whale language, we can hopefully contribute to change in policy, more protections for whales in the ocean, and ultimately more connectivity. So we've brought together an incredible team for this. The organization was founded by Doctor David Gruber, a marine biologist and National Geographic explorer, in 2020. And we've got over 50 now marine biologists, technologists, linguists, theorists, and it is truly the most interdisciplinary interspecies communication project in history. And we've just been on this crazy journey for the past five years to understand what whales are saying. We're really inspired by the Save the Whales movement. We want to be the legacy of the Save the Whales movement for a new age.

00:04:48

We're actually launching a new campaign, which I'm excited to share more with you guys and your listeners as we get closer, called Listen to the Whales. And that really fits into my purview at the organization. So I'm not a scientist. I am, as was mentioned in the first question, you know, I really have had a career in nonprofits, in international work and impact, and I joined the team to really lead on the strategy and also our non-scientific programs. So we have a strategic partnership with National Geographic. They're an incredible partner to us across all elements of the society. We have arts programs, community programs in Dominica such as our Marine Conservation Fellowship program, which is a program that we co-created with Nat Geo for Dominican youth to get involved in the research and really just have a leadership program. It's a whole curriculum that lasts 11 months across the year. And we also collaborate with the local arts organization in Dominica and we're planning on kids programs as well as policy work, which I know we'll talk about a bit later. So my day-to-day is a little of everything across the nonprofit side.

Host

Well, I mean, I think it's just super, super cool and interesting. And the first time that I heard about this project was when you told me about it last December. And I think I immediately had to think about the, I don't know if you know it, but there's a children's movie called Doctor Dolittle and there's a doctor who can speak to animals. And I was like, this is like exactly like that movie that I used to watch as a kid.

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski 00:06:21

No. And it's every kid's dream of communicating with animals, right? Like it's had such a space in our global culture.

Host

But it's also, it just seemed like something from the future. But now it's here and it's real. And I think that's amazing generally. But then speaking of language, I mean, you've had positions at Global Citizen and UNICEF before, and there you primarily worked on communicating for people and now you communicate for animals. So what has that shift kind of taught you about the required empathy and language across those projects?

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

I love this question so much. And I was in Dominica with our team last week and was spending time with Janelle Brisbane, who's an amazing conservationist and Nat Geo explorer in Dominica. And we're actually going to be doing some language revital, supporting some language revitalization work that the Kalinago indigenous people are doing in Dominica. And she and I were just talking about how language is the pathway to understanding, you know, communication is the path to amplifying and revitalizing culture and just helping people and animals and the world be understood better, right? It's so important that we have words for things and ways and means of understanding those words. So I think the shift has really, I would say, just been a deepening.

00:07:52

I think it's the same thing if you're communicating with people, you know, really meeting people where they are. We're all coming from different experiences. We're all coming from different vantage points. And what does it mean to deeply listen, not listen to talk, right? Especially what does that mean in such a noisy world that we have today? And we always say that CETI is a true listening project. And I also think that empathy is not enough when you're communicating with people or animals or other species in general, you have to have action too, right? Like empathy is a path to action. And that's why we really want CETI's work to have tangible action and impact, so that the understanding of language leads to empathy. And then it also takes it all the way to the end of, OK, like what does this actually mean for the world?

Host

Yeah, really, really, really interesting. And I mean, this is such a complex field of research. So I mean, I work in research myself and I know what it's like with the terminology and having an imagination of something, that something is possible or something exists that isn't discovered right now. So we were wondering, how do you handle skepticism in an initiative as visionary as CETI, and are there certain stakeholders that you have to persuade more than others?

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski 00:09:24

You know, before I even answer the heart of the question, I just want to call out what you just said about terminology, because this is a true listening communications project in every way, right? You experience this in your day-to-day, as you just mentioned. You know, for us what this looks like is linguists might use a term differently than marine biologists use them, which might mean something completely different in machine learning. So what does it mean to bring people together to work on something so ambitious and so grand scale, but also make sure that everyone is heard and understood, even on the team, right? So we always say that in addition to an animal communication project, it's also a human communication project. And of course wanting to be super locally rooted in Dominica where the research takes place also is a part of that, right. A lot of these big initiatives historically have been extractive. You know, you kind of come in and get your data and you leave, and what does it mean to build something visionary that is also just at the core about listening and communication? So I just love that you also experienced that in your work because it's definitely a day-to-day reality that we don't talk about enough in any interdisciplinary project, right? That doesn't just have to be science. You could talk about it if you're doing an NGO project that brings together agriculture organizations with water organizations or whatever work you're doing. And I think we should talk about it more, what it means to really communicate clearly as a team.

00:10:56

And the skepticism. I just love this question so much because I think this is another thing we don't talk about a lot. The status quo is more comfortable, right? Like we can keep going how we're going and not have disruption. But you don't have innovation then and you don't have new visions and you don't have interesting work, right? And I just want to say that, and I hope people can take this to heart. Like there are always skeptics and you're never going to be able to speak to everyone. And that's OK. And skepticism and dialogue is really useful. And we should, you know, engage with it. I think, you know, when it comes to CETI, what's been most interesting for me as a non-science person is, you know, our core is really about the animals. Our head of biology studied these whales for 20 years. David, the founder, has a really phenomenal career in marine biology that includes, you know, creating delicate technologies to do marine biology in a completely new way, which I can talk to later. And when you bring people that have a core of animal behavior together with technologists, that's a whole new colliding of worlds, right? So CETI is about taking people on a journey of how technology can be a tool. But I would say that, you know, our job is to show how you can thoughtfully and carefully use these tools, right?

00:12:27

I think that of course, there's always skepticism when there's new technology or new ways of working. I don't think there's one particular set of stakeholders that we need to win over more than others. The other thing I really believe, and I think it applies to, again, any work that anyone is doing, is if you stay focused and you stay really grounded in your values and your purpose and your goals, I really truly believe that you can bring the right people on the journey with you. And you know, you can engage with skepticism and understand it, and have it inform your work without being reactive. And I think you do that by having the work speak for itself. So for us, what that means is really telling the story of all the technology we've custom made for CETI that, you know, makes sure that we're being non-invasive for the whales. We don't take any samples from the whales. Our suction cups on our tags, we like to call them the whale smartwatch. Our tags. Tags are a way that whales and large marine mammals have been studied forever, but we want to make them smaller, more delicate. So we actually spent two years, we had an amazing postdoc at Harvard, Alyssa Hernandez, who spent two years making suction cups that mimic suckerfish and other fish in nature that naturally adhere to the whales. So now our tools are mimicking nature in a way that the whales are familiar with, right.

00:14:00

So that's just one small example of, you know, how if you are really letting the work be led by your values and you tell that story, I think that that is how you handle, that's the best way to handle skepticism.

Host

I really like that innovation, that you just basically adapt the technology to the nature. And I'm just curious, do you also have to adhere to different regulations because the whales swim from one country to another, explained in a very simple way, but do regulations change a lot from country to country?

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

That is a really great question. These whales that we study are known as the Eastern Caribbean clan of sperm whales. They are actually resident sperm whales to Dominica. So they actually live just off the coast. So we don't really deal with, I would say, that type of regulation. But what we do do is we follow both the, you know, there are a lot of scientific and research regulations, of course, that are universal for projects like this. But we also have a lot of our own internal protocols that everyone has to adhere to that are, you know, around the whales, around how to work. And we use that to make sure that we're, you know, in line with where we should be. But yes, and actually, just on this note too, fun fact about these whales is that they have their own dialect actually.

00:15:30

So these whales that are resident to Dominica, they don't sound the same as whales in the Galapagos for example. So they actually have a pattern of communication that communicates that they are from Dominica and from the Eastern Caribbean.

Host

That's pretty interesting. Pretty cool. So we as Gen Z hear a lot about climate change, but I would say not as much about oceans in the mainstream tech world. Why do you think that is and what needs to change in order to get oceans also where they should be?

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

You know, I would really love other people's opinions on this question because I think it's so interesting. And I wonder if it is partly because when the mainstream narratives around climate change really started and you had, you know, Al Gore and some of the people early on who were first speaking about this issue, it was a very tech based focus, right? You were talking about carbon, removing carbon from the atmosphere. You were talking about alternative energy sources. I think the human element and the emotional element and the storytelling element, which is so necessary to address any issue, is more [unclear]. Whereas with oceans, it feels like it almost started with the reverse, right?

00:17:01

Like if you look at the Save the Whales movement, if you look at the early conservation movements around the ocean, like very low tech. I mean Roger Payne, he and his wife Katy discovered that whales could sing in the 70s. He was an early advisor of CETI, sadly passed away in 2023. You know, they were some of the first researchers doing this type of work and it was so low tech. You know, they had headphones and a radio and, you know, a little mic they dropped in the water, but the storytelling was so powerful. Their findings led to the record Songs of the Humpback Whale. It's still the best selling nature album of all time, right? It got millions to care about whales. National Geographic actually put a version of the record in an issue about whales. And it really helped contribute to the modern, like the Marine Mammal Protection Act and other legislation in the US that we see. And I think now you're seeing the tech come in more with the oceans. But to your point, it's not as well known, right? A lot of the projects are niche. You have amazing organizations like Coral Gardeners that are using technology to do coral restoration in whole new ways. David and Rob Wood, who's the head of the Harvard Microrobotics Lab, they collaborated to create the most gentle robot in the world, and it actually is a set of jelly-like fingers that can wrap around a jellyfish and study it with less than 1/10 of the impact that your eyelid hits your eye, and then release it.

00:18:32

This is so different from the old ways of studying where you would have to take samples, you know, often even kill animals to do the research. Like that's an example of, you know, really concretely how a piece of new technology can support ocean conservation. But I feel like we're just at the beginning of hearing these stories and it needs more storytelling, how technology can support ocean conservation. It's so interesting. I feel like you hear about it more on land, right, like a lot of, you know, AI and reforestation projects. But I'm curious if you all feel like you are hearing more about these technologies and how they're being used in land based projects or not, or if it really is just that climate change lens.

Host

Well, I mean, I think I really agree with you that there has been great storytelling that should make people more aware and curious about the ocean. But I feel like, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't feel like that much has changed in that perspective from when I was a very young child. People always tell me, OK, you have Earth as our planet and 71% of that is water. And we know very little about that area actually, about all the oceans. And I mean, we had so many technological improvements and disruptions, but I don't think we know that much more, or the common person knows that much more, about the water world.

00:20:02

And yeah, so maybe to put that into perspective for CETI as well in that regard, what is your kind of definition for success? And if it succeeds, how would it change this perspective about the oceans and the human technology interactions to preserve and learn about the oceans within the next decades?

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

I really love you bringing up how little we know about the ocean because it really comes to the heart of why this project was founded, because whether it's climate change or another issue, we believe that, you know, action and even empathy start with the understanding piece. So you are actually hitting on exactly why we founded this. We know so little. You know, we hear a lot about going to space and what about here on Earth? There's so much we don't know, right, especially about the ocean. So that is really at the heart of CETI, learning more and sharing that so people have that increased understanding. That's a, you know, huge part of this project. You know, we really hope that each milestone we have, for example, last year we unlocked that there is a whale phonetic alphabet that is a very similar pattern to our phonetic alphabet. We have papers coming up showing that the whales use vowels and diphthongs. Our team witnessed a whale birth. We have two papers coming out later this year with the analysis from that event. It was over six hours and eleven female whales held up the baby to breathe, because when sperm whales are born, they actually can't swim.

00:21:34

And it was an incredible collaborative, amazing multispecies moment. There actually were dolphins that came in as a part of it, and also pilot whales were there, and the team's been spending the last couple years analyzing it. And you know, with each beat that we have, with each release, we really hope that it helps us think differently about non-human intelligence, having more wonder about it. Imagine what the world can be like. You know, our views of the future, they're often, I'm sure you all feel this as Gen Z, like they're very dystopian. You know, we want this to be a way that people can see themselves as part of nature, not separate from it, and help us think differently about how we build our future, how we approach land, how we approach the ocean, how we approach each other. It's bigger than us. It's about what we're a part of. And I think, you know, something that David and the science team always say, which really resonates with me, is thinking of this as a telescope, right? It's not about one outcome or one finding. It's a new way of seeing the world. Like what can that open up? And I hope that we have more recognition of non-human intelligence. It's not just CETI. There's incredible, you know, research going on with other species as well, including plants. And, you know, all of this can just help enrich our world and open us up to everything that is out there.

Host 00:23:07

To your point of how much more we have to understand not just about the ocean but also on land as well. I imagine that all the people that work at CETI, through the daily operations and through experiencing the milestones that you guys have experienced, it really changes their perspective and their understanding because they have first hand insight and influence to these projects. Could you maybe give an insight into this, if there has been like an incremental moment that really altered your way of thinking or your perspective on things?

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

Wow, I have to really think about that. I think the whale birth, so I wasn't actually present for the whale birth, but what I have really, and we're very careful about our scientific findings. So we actually don't do any media or interviews until our results are peer reviewed. But anecdotally, speaking about the whale birth with people, I've been really struck by how much it speaks to people emotionally. And I think it's really confirmed what I felt already, and what is one of the through lines of my career, is that showing people the world, giving people stories like this, it really creates that emotional connection. And when we feel emotional connection, we want to care more, we want to participate. I also feel, I mean, I'm just blown away every day by our team

00:24:39

and really encourage people to go to our website, projectceti.org, get to know the team. I try to be very careful, stay in my domain expertise. I don't over talk about the science, but you know, I'm just blown away. You know, our theory team led by Shafi Goldwasser, who's a Turing Award winner, they're, you know, dreaming up what are the whales saying? Right? And then they're putting forward these hypotheses and seeing if the science backs them up. Like I think what has changed my perspective the most, or I would say again, just deepened it, is just again this idea of working interdisciplinary, like you just have to, you see things completely differently. And it's really powerful. And I hope for the world that there is more of that. And that's what's really stood out to me. I hope that answered your...

Host

Yeah, that makes sense. And I mean, speaking of the task of engaging with the people and speaking with the people and giving the people insights from an organizational point of view. I mean, you've worked with big and established institutions like the United Nations, and now also with newer, fresher, younger, perhaps more agile projects like CETI. And how does the communication strategy differ between those? Or does it roughly stay the same? What do you think?

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

I think there's core elements that are necessary in both instances. I would love to hear your thoughts on this from your experience.

00:26:11

For me, growth and scale are extremely challenging. I don't think anyone in any sector has nailed this yet. You know, everything starts as a nucleus, whether it's a tech company starting in someone's dorm and then you have, you know, 50 offices around the world and thousands of employees, or you just start with a kernel of an idea and then it becomes an international NGO. I think that the things that translate across are structure and frameworks, very important. That looks like clarity of roles. It looks like strong communication pathways for people working together. I think sometimes, and I understand why, community organizations or grassroots organizations don't want to build too much structure because you don't want to get rid of the organic nature. But I think it can always be adapted to the context. And no matter where you are, it can be at the right level to allow for creativity and allow for whatever growth you envision, but while still offering the framework that, you know, really allows your strategy just to shine. And it can be radical, right? It can be super innovative how you do this. I think communication both internally and externally is another just non-negotiable. This is something that gets harder, of course, as you grow in size. And the UN institutions, you know, if you look at UNICEF, for example, you've got all the country offices, plus you have what's called their national committees, which are the fundraising offices around the world. It's a lot to navigate, right? And a lot of people, I think

00:27:42

without strong structures for communication, you're, that just applies to both. I also think that there's ways to bring the agility and, you know, more startup culture, I would say, of community organizations and smaller organizations into these larger ones. You know, I think it is a strategic job to really look at, OK, here is our legacy and framework in these large organizations, but how do we bring innovations in pockets? You know, what are the things we can start inside to allow us to bring in a little of both? So I truly think you need both, and that, you know, the strong strategy, like the structure and frameworks, the clarity of roles and the strong communication, it translates. Those are the three core pillars for me, the translation.

Host

Interesting. I mean, I think what I can share from our experience from this project, from Campus To Capital, is that more established institutions compared to young startups, I would say, are generally a little bit more skeptical, a little bit more cautious. They do a little bit more due diligence and they also may not be as brave when it comes to speaking about certain topics, but I think also that is also just because they have more established frameworks, so.

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

Yes, and I also think it gets into what we're going to speak about a little bit, about influence, right.

Host

For sure.

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

And who is your audience and who are you?

00:29:13

Yeah. And I think the art, and I've tried to do it in my role at CETI, you know, is how do you bring in the due diligence and the ways that you need those things to have a strong organization without the latter that you said, of the kind of, you don't want it to slow you down, right? That's the art.

Host

Yeah, good points. So looking back on your career, you gained a lot of experience working on justice, equity and access, for example, at the Clara Lionel Foundation or Global Citizen. So how do you carry that mindset into, yeah, the work that includes completely different things like AI and marine life?

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

Yeah. You know, when I met David and he told me about the vision for CETI, what really got me hooked was that he told me he wanted to do it right. And what that meant was not making it a typical international science project. He wanted it to be locally rooted. You know, we have a local team in Dominica, a local marine team that's out gathering data every day. As I mentioned before, we have the fellowship program and other local partnerships that, you know, also allow us to bring some of this to the next generation, which to me, that's a big through line in my past work, is youth. And how do you really make sure that you're changing access and offering more opportunities?

00:30:44

You know, I think one thing with justice, equity and access, you know, there's so much dialogue about it right now. There's so much in the United States, like about DEI. To me, it's in your DNA, like of your organization. It shouldn't be an add-on. And everyone can have it incorporated in an authentic way, no matter the topic you're working on. And it really looks like building trust with whoever you're working with, asking the right questions, you know, being a strong collaborator in a way where you're really understanding the context that you're working in. And so all that to say, I would say that of course, there's the piece of like being locally rooted, how we storytell, how we, you know, make sure that people can access and understand CETI. But then there's the how are we doing it internally? Even things like changing how we're doing the research, changing the technologies, creating our own technologies, forging our own path. That is the mindset of this organization. And it is rooted in these three areas on both sides. And that's something that to me, you just strive for every single day. You know, it's not a job that's done ever. And it's important to bring those lenses no matter what you're doing. Even if you're working in finance or a completely different sector, I think it's possible to bring these lenses in a way that is authentic.

Host

For sure. I mean, I think it's super, super important that while you work on refinement and improvement that you never stop exploring.

00:32:17

I think that's just an absolute must to conduct a successful venture nowadays, especially if you're a first mover in a new industry, right. But to get back to the topic of influence that we just touched upon, I mean you've worked at celebrity-led organizations and, as we talked about earlier, at the UN, and how do you think that actually this topic of influence differs between those organizations?

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

This is a very complex issue, you know, and you just made a lot of great points about this. And I think, you know, when you have a celebrity driven organization or foundation, or even something like Global Citizen, which is a platform that might engage a lot of celebrities, you know, influence can really start with the vision of how an individual or group of individuals wants to show up in the world, right? I think with these larger institutions, to your earlier point, you have, you know, a lot more adherence to politics, to regulations on what you can speak about, how you can speak about it. And some of that is just political, but some of it is also rooted in regulations or definitions. And that can be really challenging. I think what's interesting with the UN level organizations is you really have that systemic engagement with governments. I think you see that less in the celebrity driven foundations. At Clara Lionel Foundation,

00:33:47

one of the things that we worked on early on was collaborating with the Global Partnership for Education, for the founder of the foundation, and actually in partnership with Global Citizen, to advocate for large scale funding to go to the Global Partnership for Education, which then goes down to the government plans, like in Malawi or Senegal, for actual primary and secondary schools in the national education plan. So the UN level organizations have an ability to work on that scale and it can be super interesting to mix a celebrity driven mission with that, because then you're kind of getting that pairing of the grassroots in the community with that policy and that government work. I think when we think about influence, a lot of it has to be so grandiose, you know, especially when you're thinking of celebrities, they have such big platforms and such big access. I think my biggest takeaway on the importance of influence from both these, there's obviously the societal and cultural influence which is on that global scale, but the layers include how are you influencing people's individual lives? How are you reaching individuals? I think that grassroots community work, you know, it can have some of the most lasting impact actually, and it still helps to get that influence of like thinking differently or moving towards a different world, a world that we want to see.

00:35:17

And I think all these layers are necessary. And I think where the interdisciplinarity gets interesting is how do you pair them together? And how do you, similar to your question about large organizations and smaller organizations, how do you play with these layers of influence so they can actually strengthen each other and inform each other, right. And then when you do that, you have a comprehensive way of influencing that reaches all these different layers. And I think that's where the work is super interesting.

Host

So I'm just curious, in terms of marketing, I don't like the term marketing, I would rather say setting awareness. Do you collaborate with celebrities or any other famous people so they can set awareness for the amazing work that you are doing?

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

That's a great question. We have not had any at CETI. We've not had any celebrity ambassadors yet, but it's something we're really excited for. Something also, and I think this is great for people with companies or organizations that are looking to engage celebrities: it's important to have a really strong strategy and like ways for them to engage throughout the year where they can really feel like they're having a voice and impact in a real way, not just maybe like a post here or there, but like how can they really contribute and be a part of the team. So, you know, at this point in the organization, we've got some great science out there. We've got this amazing partnership with National Geographic and we're really going to be launching a lot more of our public facing communications.

00:36:50

And part of that is going to be, you know, looking to engage folks with a big platform. I mentioned our Listen to the Whales campaign that we're launching. We're launching it soon with a video that National Geographic shot in Dominica. And this will be an evergreen campaign across the year with lots of moments of activation and ways that people can tap into what CETI's doing and ways people can participate. And as we roll that out, you're going to see more engagement in that capacity with CETI.

Host

Great. So earlier on you compared your work at CETI to working in a very, very ambitious startup. But the thing that differs you from a startup is that you can't measure your success with the same metrics, as your metrics on just revenue, user growth or quarterly KPIs. So how do you really measure success? Because it's a very subjective term in my opinion.

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

I totally agree. And it's so much easier to measure those things you just listed, right? With CETI, how we've approached it, because we're working on so many fronts, but we do have specific milestones. So CETI actually had one set of scientific milestones. Each year had its own milestones. We had them laid out from 2020 to 2025 and we measured against the progress of each specific milestone, whether it was building a certain type of tech or a certain, you know, you never know.

00:38:20

The other thing that's hard with CETI, or any type of research, and why we look at it like a telescope, is when you're doing this type of research, someone on the science team might discover something that leads to a whole new thread, right? So how do you, you know, make sure that there's room in those milestones for that growth and innovation while, you know, being able to show the progress? We are working right now on our next set of milestones. And with that will come a lot of communicating about where we are. And yeah, we really have to frame it within each scientific team. So we have thematic teams. So if you have a machine learning team, a linguistics team, a theory team, and they each have their own milestones, that also allows us to make sure that the milestones are, you know, a good match for those disciplines. I think you also have to explore new ways of storytelling success. Yes, you know, you can find ways of measuring that aren't, you know, typical. And for our nonprofit programming, it's actually a bit easier because we can say, for example, that with the fellowship, we did programming in this many schools this year, we reached this many kids, or, to your earlier question about communications, with communications you can measure how many people you're reaching, or events. But with the science, we're also trying to create a new way to show scientific progress that allows for concrete incremental measurement that people can understand,

00:39:50

but also allows for this idea of, this is a new tool of scientific research. So it's not just about the specific outcomes. It's bigger than that.

Host

Well, I mean, I think I'm super, super excited to see what milestones CETI will reach because, I mean, I think to put it simply, I think you guys are putting the future of science into today's world. And I mean, as we talked about earlier, I think that should be a relevant kind of interest for every person on this planet, as we will learn about the largest region, the largest area that is on this beautiful Earth, right? And also to kind of link this to your work at Global Citizen, what do you think is important for being a global citizen today, especially in a world that experiences so many struggles and stresses through climate change and inequality right now?

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

Yeah, something we're all grappling with every day, right? You know, I think the first thing is to really manage the noise. You know, there's so many inputs. You have to dig really deep, whether that means digging really deeply into a topic and trying to understand it from all perspectives. I think you have to really listen. Don't just be in your vacuum, right? You need to be strong in your values.

00:41:22

My biggest thing, when it comes to people, is I think we have to remember that no person is more important than someone else. Every single human on this planet is someone to someone and that matters. And I think if you extend that to what you just said, which is how we're all in this together, right? And we've got this beautiful ocean that we don't know enough about. You know, what does it mean to have the term global citizen encompass not just people, but how you show up in this world, how you understand the whole world and how you look at other beings and other species? We're all on this planet together. So I think every person has to define that for themselves. But knowing yourself and what that means for you is the most important thing that everyone can do. And then incorporate that into your life, again, not just knowing it, but acting, would be what I [unclear]. What does it mean to you?

Host

Well, I mean, I think it's a very good point. And what I also think it means for me to be a global citizen is to try to put that into action as well, up to a certain extent. I mean, obviously there's some things that people do, even if they are aware, that are not necessarily good for the environment just due to our daily lives. I mean, we all use a lot of energy to charge our phones and our laptops.

00:42:52

We maybe fly a little bit too often sometimes. But I think there's always a good need to have perspective and to also adapt and change and improve. And that starts with things in your own household. That starts with how you engage with others. That starts with how you share perspectives with your peers. And from this incremental perspective outwards, I think if every human contributes to a togetherness and to like a uniform aid and support for everyone, we can make the world a better place. That's my perspective.

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

Yeah. I love that. I couldn't add anything to that, honestly.

Host

So referring back to the first question that I asked today. So what someone should bring to the table? [...]

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

Yeah, I think the first thing that people can do is really get experience in different types of organizations, different types of groups that are working on these issues, right? Get inside all the different ways that people are [unclear], and that may mean working for something in corporate social responsibility and then a small tech startup and then maybe a more global organization.

00:44:25

I think having these different experiences of different types of organizations and companies is very important. I also think, you know, really looking at the bones of an organization or project when you're deciding whether to be involved. What's the motivation of it? Why? What is the why, right? We're always hurtling forward. I think we need to pause more and think, OK, like I'm picking this project, this organization to be a part of, because they're approaching the work this way, not just because it, you know, seems good. I think, you know, I want to stress the interdisciplinary nature again. I would look for organizations, teams and projects that are bringing in different sectors. The world demands it of us. You know, we can't be siloed anymore. So I think, you know, instead of maybe just going to a global org or a tech org, you know, finding those institutions that are incorporating all these things, you know, volunteering, doing internships. I know it's obviously like a pretty tough job market right now. So I really encourage people, and people have different capacity, of course, and ability to get involved with things. But if you can, that is a great way just to get your feet wet. I think also just remembering all the different vantage points and staying humble. Like there's so many perspectives and ideas, making sure you're bringing that to the projects that you're involved in.

00:45:58

And yeah, looking in unexpected places for projects too. Maybe looking at, you know, academic institutions, looking inside large companies, you know, really digging into the research and finding things that speak to you is the best approach, I think.

Host

I think, I mean, in general, one should always be open and curious to try out new things. And actually, personally, I think the best advice that I've ever gotten in my entire life was not to just overly focus on one thing. [...] [...] You need to kind of diversify and compensate your brain power between multiple activities. [...] It will allow you to be better in everything instead of like being worse, if that makes sense. And to kind of put that at a larger scale, I think a lot of people in our generation feel a great stress to like double down super early. I mean, like people want to specialize early. They want to get into like a certain career field super early because they feel like they need to get ahead. They need to get their foot into the door as early as possible. But I think you are also a person that has experience and a track record that shows the great power and usefulness of range.

00:47:29

And what is your perspective on this, and what's your advice to people on when to specialize and when to change and when to be agile?

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

First of all, I also felt this pressure. You know, that was 20 years ago, but I remember being at the Council on Foreign Relations and you could just feel the pressure everyone felt. So, you know, young people like me who were there in our early 20s, like, to only think about foreign policy all the time, you know, live and breathe it. And everything you just said, I could not agree with more. I hope people hear it. I think the more of a whole person you are, the more your career will have range and depth. And you know, to the last question, interesting projects coming your way, like it is imperative. And I do think the idea of being a generalist is important. I think there's also ways to combine it. You can find your niche and build concrete skills that are your own unique offering while you are not specializing early. I also think that for people at the beginning of their career, take your time. Like again, I know there's so much pressure and, you know, sometimes we have to make choices based on whatever the situation is. I started working three days after I graduated undergrad and I haven't really stopped. I mean, I love to work. So that was my journey and that's fine.

00:49:01

But you know, I think one thing that I did with my master's program is I didn't go to school right away. And again, everyone's journey is different. I know that there's a lot of arguments for going straight into school, but for me, I felt like taking some time working, understanding myself more, my own interests, more learning, being open, that allowed me to pick a graduate school program that I actually could, you know, really leverage and get a lot out of. But I couldn't have done that if I had jumped straight into specialization, right? So I think again, going back also to the last question, like getting experience in all kinds of environments, you know, you really have to just keep challenging yourself. Don't get comfortable. We need to elevate our thinking. We need to dream. Being committed and in depth in your career, in your professional life and as a person doesn't necessarily mean that you have to pick your lane right away. The most interesting careers are where you keep following the threads, and a lot of it is luck too. You know, it's luck and it's privilege and all these things play into it. But I think also, you know, when it comes to pivoting or making career choices, you know, really knowing yourself and taking care of yourself as a whole person. My friend Christine Platt, she has a book coming out in the fall. It's called Less as Liberation. And it's really all about what do we need to be well, what do we need to be the whole person, and it really speaks to everything you just said.

00:50:33

You know, if you allow yourself that space, you're just going to be a stronger professional and you're going to be stronger personally as well.

Host

I really like the perspective and I think this is an inspirational closing note to the very, very, very interesting conversation we had today. Yeah, Fiona, first and foremost, thank you so much for joining us today. Although [unclear], this made me so much more aware how important and beautiful the world and the ocean is out there, and probably digging very deep into the rabbit hole of, yeah, interdisciplinary communication and everything related. So yeah, thank you. Thank you so much.

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

Thank you so much for having me. Such great questions and I just really appreciated the conversation.

Host

Thanks a lot from my side as well. I mean, this was very, very, very interesting for the both of us, but I also think we've got some amazing insights for our audience, which I'm very happy about, and I'm also very happy to be back in this podcast setting. We were just on a three-week break and now we're back. So this was a lot of fun. I hope our listeners enjoyed it as much. And as usual, from now on, we'll be back every Wednesday, every two weeks, and then check out our socials, per usual, go to projectceti.org, look up their story and their background if you're interested as well. And then, guys, we'll hear you soon. Thank you so much.

Fiona Korwin-Pawlowski

Right.